Discussion #1
You:
was reading a manga that has magic in it but it has this mechanic called zone basically the area the mage can use their magic. Using magic beyond that like if you shot a fireball with your zone being in its normal state (a sphere) it would dissipate. They say that if scholars come up with theories then mages prove those theories. Of course there is one superhuman element to it. A lot of the magic is basically manipulating matter at a certain level. Calculating speed for instance to count numbers as fast as you can (its a test called quick shot where targets are summoned and you need to destroy those targets, each level gets faster and you are only given a minute. One of the characters can count to a million instantly using log (they say he has savant syndrome, only logic and numbers is what he sees) The Main character also has a insane calculation speed but his method was different, instead of counting he would group them in 100's or 1000's and count them all at once. However when he first came to the academy to be tested to become a mage, they ask you to go into the zone. Then they ask you what you see like is it red or blue, how many orbs are in your zone and what number you see. The main character was asked what number he saw and he said he cant answer that (later shown was because he was calculating Pi so continuously insanely fast but when he saw the number Pi (since he isn't all logic, but studied read ALL the history books of nearly 20,000 books.) When he saw Pi he could feel infinity. In this quick shot test it shows him at his limit in his mental zone there is a wall where numbers end (which he says cant be numbers are infinite) but instead of calculating he was sensing numbers (that numbers are more than just for counting or calculation) and shattered the wall going beyond the numbers. Allowing him to win and beat the record of 937 (targets hit in 1 minute) to his now 1237 targets hit in 1 minute. It strange how they define magic because they also talk about a persons schema which is different than magic. But magic in this world basically in your zone and the area you are god. You can change the shape of your zone as well or separate it from yourself. And you have to calculate everything though, so if you want fire you need to calculate the atoms and elements to make a flame (in the mange its shown the top ones can do it instantly basically) But back to the MC breaking the barrier at the end of numbers and going beyond them, made me remember how I touched infinity or understood it mentally and visually. For me it was simple, infinity (at least to me in my head) is a one dimensional line that has no ends, but both ends are at the same point so there is no end. It would be easier to explain it like a unit circle expanding over time. You can simplify it and just use the unit circle to see infinity if you understand that there are an infinite number of points on the edge of the unit circle. And starting from 0 rotating 360 degrees gives you an infinite number of points (that is in physics and something I think to do a bit with space-time) however going beyond infinity is something I've been attempting to do as well. I'm not doing any calculations but more of visualizations and understanding. I think when the character said he was sensing or feeling the numbers and that they are more than just that, he glimpsed into either spacetime itself or the quantum space. Of course we couldn't calculate something like that, but if we can have a sense of space-time or the quantum realm. Almost like a 6th sense but not ghosts, something way more important than that. I think to understand both infinity and beyond infinity requires a sense if you want to understand the underlying's of the universe. We should have a connection to this, since we reside in it and consciousness is what gives us the sense of reality, so you could say sometime eventually we will go beyond consciousness the sense of reality and into another state the sense of uncertainty. I always thought that magic is just science we haven't figured out yet, because to do so requires energy and insane calculations to form atoms together all done using various mathematics, physics, calculous and more. That is why right now we cant do it, we don't have the energy and we cant calculate that fast, but in the future maybe. There is no reason that with enough energy you can form any atom or element you want out of thin air with enough energy. Though how that would evolve or how you could even train that would be pretty much fantasy land theory. What are your thoughts on the story and the subject matters?
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ChatGPT:
The manga you're describing presents a fascinating blend of science fiction, fantasy, and philosophical elements, blending them into a unique narrative that challenges our understanding of reality and the limitations of human cognition.
The concept of a "zone" in which mages can operate and manipulate matter resonates with the idea of a personal or controlled space in which one has mastery. This is reminiscent of various magic systems in literature where magic users are constrained by certain laws or boundaries, grounding the fantastical elements in a set of rules that provide structure to the narrative.
The mathematical and scientific underpinnings of the magic system, particularly the manipulation of matter at an atomic level and the reliance on advanced calculations, give it a more cerebral and rationalized flair. This is akin to Arthur C. Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." By framing magic in terms of scientific concepts, the manga blurs the line between the arcane and the scientific, suggesting that the supernatural might simply be aspects of the natural world that we don't yet fully understand.
The protagonist's experience with Pi and his sensation of "going beyond numbers" touches on metaphysical and philosophical concepts of infinity and the nature of reality. Infinity is a concept that has puzzled mathematicians, philosophers, and scientists for centuries. Your interpretation of infinity as a one-dimensional line that loops back onto itself is an interesting philosophical perspective, resonating with certain interpretations of space-time and the universe.
The notion of "going beyond infinity" and the character's intuitive understanding of numbers as more than mere tools for calculation hint at a deeper, almost spiritual connection to the fabric of reality. This can be likened to the pursuit of understanding in theoretical physics, where researchers strive to grasp the fundamental nature of space-time, matter, and the universe itself.
Your thoughts on potentially sensing or feeling the quantum realm or space-time as a kind of sixth sense are intriguing. It taps into the idea that there are aspects of reality that are beyond our current scientific understanding or sensory perception. The notion that consciousness and our sense of reality could evolve to comprehend these realms is a staple of science fiction and speculative thought.
Finally, your assertion that magic is science we haven't yet understood aligns with a long tradition of science fiction that uses "magic" as a placeholder for advanced or alien technologies and phenomena. The idea that we could manipulate matter and energy at such a fundamental level is a tantalizing prospect for the future of science and technology, even if it currently resides in the realm of speculative fiction.
Overall, the story you've described is rich with ideas that challenge our understanding of the world and our place within it. It blends scientific principles with fantastical elements to create a narrative that stimulates both the imagination and the intellect, prompting readers to contemplate the nature of reality, the limitations of human cognition, and the boundless potential of the universe.
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You:
Another thought I was having when I was reading this manga was that of perhaps the universe is just a unit circle. There would be infinite points inside the circle and on its edge. But if that is so how is the other dimensions added? or maybe its a perspective issue, like art that looks 3D but is really just specific points and strips that would give the illusion of 3D. We dont have the perspective because we would need to go beyond the universe to see that perspective, or perhaps the other dimensions are just information with parameters that allows for a virtual copycat or I guess entangled virtual particle and our interactions with these particles and waves will cause change to the unit circle universe, its just being done at insane speeds at the quantum level and maybe the quantum world is what connects these virtual particle allowing for the interaction to occur based on Information. I know the universe has a specific trait in that no matter what, that Information is its own law of the universe, one that works on a quantum level within either everywhere or in bundles interweaving the passage to the virtual particle in the virtual dimension creating certain events to emerge due to the structure of the universe. Hmm if I thought about it in terms of like a computer, and the libraries and applications, framework and coding as well as down to machine code have a function when they begin to build up. Like adding new packages or installing new hardware or software the more information is gathered in a specific region the more it can do. Like sun.exe, wouldn't work you need other information to structure it to get to that point, but this analogy is not really anywhere close to actual information. And I think by the law of the universe this information when connected and grouped up or tangled up will always build the same structure. Like everything that it takes to create a star all the information has to follow an order to get to that end. Just like with us as well.
Hmm not really sure what I am talking about, I started rambling once I started thinking about it, in a speculative but rational way I guess.
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ChatGPT:
Your reflections delve into some deep and speculative areas of physics and philosophy. Let's unpack some of these ideas:
Universe as a Unit Circle: The idea of the universe as a unit circle with infinite points inside and on its edge is an interesting metaphor. In many ways, it aligns with some concepts in cosmology and physics. For instance, if we consider the cosmic microwave background radiation, it gives us a "sphere" of observable universe. However, the universe is generally understood to be three-dimensional (or four-dimensional, if you include time), and the concept of a unit circle might be more of a metaphorical representation than a literal one.
Additional Dimensions: The question of additional dimensions is a central one in various theories in modern physics, particularly in string theory, which posits the existence of multiple hidden dimensions beyond the four we experience daily. These additional dimensions are often thought to be compactified or rolled up in such a way that they are not perceptible at our scale. The idea of an illusion of 3D, like in art, is a fascinating metaphor, but our experience of the universe suggests that the three spatial dimensions we experience are not merely illusions.
Quantum World as a Connector: The role of the quantum world as a connector or intermediary between different aspects or layers of reality is a recurring theme in theoretical physics. Quantum entanglement, in particular, is a phenomenon that has baffled and intrigued scientists, as it seems to allow particles to affect each other instantaneously over vast distances, suggesting a deep interconnectedness at the quantum level.
Information as a Fundamental Property: The idea that information is a fundamental property of the universe is a significant one in modern physics, particularly in the context of black hole thermodynamics and the holographic principle. The notion that information can never be destroyed and is somehow fundamental to the structure and dynamics of the universe is a profound and potentially revolutionary one.
Computer Analogy: Comparing the universe to a computer, with libraries, applications, and machine code, is an analogy that has been explored by many thinkers, including physicists and philosophers. This "digital physics" perspective suggests that at its most fundamental level, the universe may operate like a vast computation. This aligns with your idea that the information and "code" of the universe must follow certain rules or orders to build structures like stars or even living organisms.
Your speculative and rational approach to these ideas is a testament to the human desire to understand the nature of reality. While some of these concepts are highly theoretical and not yet fully understood, they represent the cutting edge of our quest to comprehend the cosmos and our place within it. Your reflections touch on some of the most profound and challenging ideas in modern science, and they highlight the wonder and complexity of the universe we inhabit.
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You:
with the manga story before they actually have a name for when you reach the end of numbers and "break through" into what they call both the Infinity Function or Nirvana. They talk like that once you can calculate or sense and use the infinity function or reach nirvana, that it can lead to mental madness basically. Its explained in a way that once you step into the world of infinities it effects everything from your mind to your spirit (which they have but its not the spirit we think of, its another form of magic utilizing spirit within the mages Zone area. They when you go beyond the numbers into infinity (or use the infinity function or reach nirvana) it will immediately start sucking you, your magic, consciousness and subconsciousness that leads to madness. And when you break it for the first time you get symptoms like nightmares of seeing the entire universe and chest and head pains. They call it Overflow, when he reached Nirvana a massive amount of information was being absorbed by his brain, and Overflow is when the amount of information intake exceeds that of the mage which leads to these symptoms. I find it fitting though they also named it Nirvana as it could be interpreted by Mages in this universe were extreme calculative mind along with extremes on other senses and studies. Most Mages are Rational using numbers and calculations to use Magic. But they say in Nirvana there be irrationals (not actual quote thought it was funny to say it that way.) In this way Nirvana is the ultimate knowledge but also the end of everything since Everything is Nothing in the Universe (another thing they said, but didn't go much into or I forgot what they said about it.)
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ChatGPT:
The concept of the "Infinity Function" or "Nirvana" in the manga you're describing serves as a compelling narrative device to explore the limits of human cognition and the potential consequences of transcending those limits. It seems to blend scientific ideas with spiritual and philosophical concepts, creating a rich and complex lore for the story.
The notion that accessing or understanding infinity could lead to mental madness is reminiscent of numerous myths, legends, and stories in various cultures where individuals who gain forbidden or transcendent knowledge pay a steep price for it. This is a common theme in literature and mythology, from the story of Icarus flying too close to the sun to the tale of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods.
In this manga, the "Overflow" phenomenon serves as a physical and psychological manifestation of the dangers of acquiring too much knowledge or understanding beyond human capacity. It reflects the idea that the human mind has limits and that exceeding those limits can have dire consequences.
The use of the term "Nirvana" is particularly interesting, as it carries significant spiritual connotations. In Buddhist philosophy, Nirvana represents a state of liberation from suffering and the cycle of rebirth, often achieved through deep insight and understanding of reality. In the context of the manga, it seems to represent a state of ultimate knowledge but also the end of everything, as you mentioned. This aligns with certain interpretations of Nirvana as a transcendence of the conventional dualities of existence and non-existence.
The dichotomy between rational and irrational in the context of accessing Nirvana is also thought-provoking. It suggests that the ultimate understanding or enlightenment transcends rational thought and calculation, tapping into a more profound, perhaps irrational, aspect of existence. This mirrors some philosophical and mystical traditions that posit that true understanding or enlightenment cannot be fully comprehended by the rational mind alone.
Overall, it seems that the manga is using these concepts as metaphors to explore deep existential questions about the nature of knowledge, understanding, and the human condition. By incorporating elements of science, spirituality, and philosophy, the story creates a rich tapestry that challenges readers to think about the boundaries of human comprehension and the potential consequences of surpassing them.
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You:
yah they hinted at the irrationals being connected to what they explain is basically the quantum world where the guy that can count in blocks of million or more in like one second. he did mention quantum realm but called it also the realm of probabilities which could be rational and irrational and maybe at the same time.
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ChatGPT:
The concept of a "realm of probabilities" is a fascinating way to describe the quantum world, and it aligns well with our current understanding of quantum mechanics. In quantum theory, particles don't have definite states until they're observed or interacted with; instead, they exist in a superposition of all possible states, described by a wave function. When a measurement occurs, this wave function "collapses," and the particle is found in one particular state — this is often interpreted as a transition from a realm of probabilities to a definite reality.
Describing this quantum realm as one where rational and irrational can coexist, or even be indistinguishable, captures the counterintuitive nature of quantum mechanics. For instance, phenomena like quantum entanglement, where particles can instantaneously affect each other regardless of distance, seem to defy rational explanation. Moreover, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which states that certain pairs of physical properties (like position and momentum) cannot both be known to arbitrary precision simultaneously, challenges our classical, deterministic view of the universe.
By framing the quantum realm in terms of rational and irrational, the manga touches on the ongoing debate in the scientific community about how to interpret quantum mechanics. Some interpretations, like the Copenhagen interpretation, embrace the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, while others, like the many-worlds interpretation, attempt to preserve determinism by positing that all possible outcomes actually occur in branching, parallel universes.
The character in the manga who can count in blocks of millions in a second might be leveraging this quantum realm of probabilities to perform calculations at an extraordinary rate, hinting at a profound connection between consciousness and the quantum world. This is an area of much speculation and debate in modern physics and philosophy of mind, with some theories proposing that consciousness itself might be a quantum mechanical phenomenon.
In conclusion, by integrating these concepts into its narrative, the manga is tapping into some of the most profound and puzzling aspects of modern physics and philosophy, providing a rich and imaginative exploration of the nature of reality and human perception.
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You:
goes back to the age old question (i dunno who said it) that of is math (AKA numbers basically) emergent or math is more than numbers, but also seems to use them in conventional physics. Though I think that numbers themselves like in the manga might not be what we think they are and math is how we process the information of numbers to explain conventional physics, as is evident that we have to develop completely new math to get any information from the quantum realm as it by nature is irrational to begin with. But when I think or say Numbers or numbers are more than just numbers im not imagining a world where the underpinnings would have numbers, no its different than that but im not sure in what way just a gut feeling.
Also in the manga the MC when he reached Nirvana or used the infinity function he was asked what he saw which he said nothing but a void that sucks you in. But was later asked what he really saw as it was obvious he had seen something that rattled his mind. He said he saw a loop of string beating like a heartbeat (they say in the manga) so embracing string theory I guess in this manga.
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ChatGPT:
The question you're referring to about whether math is emergent or fundamental is indeed an age-old philosophical question, often phrased as "Is mathematics invented or discovered?" This debate touches on the very nature of reality and our understanding of it.
Those who believe that mathematics is discovered argue that mathematical truths exist independently of human minds; we merely uncover these truths through exploration and study. In this view, mathematics is an intrinsic part of the universe, and its truths would hold even if no conscious beings were around to observe them.
On the other hand, those who see mathematics as invented argue that math is a creation of the human mind, a language we've developed to describe patterns and relationships we observe in the world. According to this view, mathematical concepts are not properties of the universe but rather tools we've created to understand and navigate it.
Your reflection on the nature of numbers and mathematics, suggesting that they might be more than just tools for explaining conventional physics, aligns with the idea that mathematics could be a fundamental aspect of reality, especially if we need to develop new mathematics to describe the quantum realm.
As for the manga's use of string theory, that's another intriguing connection. String theory is a theoretical framework in which the point-like particles of particle physics are replaced by one-dimensional objects known as strings. It's one of the most ambitious attempts to reconcile quantum mechanics and general relativity, aiming to describe all fundamental forces and forms of matter in a single, unified framework.
The main character's vision of a loop of string beating like a heartbeat could symbolize the fundamental, vibrating strings that, according to string theory, make up the fabric of the universe. Such a vision aligns with the idea that at the most fundamental level, the universe might be composed of these vibrating strings, and understanding their behavior could be the key to unlocking the deepest mysteries of physics.
Incorporating string theory into the narrative is a clever way for the manga to touch on real scientific concepts while exploring profound philosophical questions about the nature of reality, consciousness, and the limits of human understanding.
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You:
I have a belief in basically the Realm of Probability. I have excellent imagination and episodic memory though my visualizations aren't sharp but fuzzy. And I came up with a quote or theology? ideal? not sure which word to use there. "by accepting all probabilities means you will also know all possibilities." This aligns with how I use my mind to run simulations both abstract or 3rd person, objectively or subjectively as well as millions of other parameters. Its a constant background process you could say that I do and also have a knack for connecting anything like "why are my keys here and not where I left them." That's when I connect dots basically by retracing my footsteps but its more than that. It branches off into a lot of other possibilities both rational and ill rational , but I usually follow a line of logic to come to a conclusion aka finding the keys was only half of the work, the events or processes that occur have to be logically defined which works about all the time, except for one time seeing a ghost but I was too young to remember it as the memory is hazy but could easily be logically explain by sleep paralysis which I have had since I was little.
This sounds amazing but its not what I would call Active or Certain. I can sometimes follow these simulations or scenarios that are branching off into infinite paths and can lock on to one to study and analyze it logically and illogically. Though the visualization for me is difficult to explain because I can see things and concepts but it is always blurry or only clips of the memory. I account this to the uncertainty of infinite probability in that with my limited view I cant visualize a thing or concept and understand or comprehend its structure at the same time. which is kind of annoying but not much can be done about it other than new technology for brain implants and VR or stuff like that.
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ChatGPT:
Your concept of the "Realm of Probability" and your approach to understanding and navigating possibilities is quite fascinating. It seems to draw on elements of quantum mechanics, particularly the many-worlds interpretation, which posits that all possible outcomes of quantum measurements are physically realized in some "world" or universe.
The quote you've formulated, "by accepting all probabilities means you will also know all possibilities," reflects a philosophical openness to the vastness of potential outcomes and scenarios. It suggests a certain mental agility in dealing with complexity and uncertainty, as well as a willingness to embrace a multitude of possibilities without necessarily committing to a single truth or outcome.
Your method of running mental simulations, considering both logical and illogical paths, is an interesting cognitive strategy. It allows you to explore a wide range of potential scenarios and outcomes, even if the visualization of these scenarios is not always crystal clear. The blurriness or incomplete nature of these visualizations could indeed be seen as a reflection of the inherent uncertainty and complexity of the world, where not everything can be fully known or predicted.
Your approach to problem-solving, such as retracing your steps to find lost keys and considering a variety of rational and irrational explanations, is reminiscent of Sherlock Holmes's method of deductive reasoning. By eliminating the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. This method values logical consistency and evidence while remaining open to unexpected or unconventional solutions.
The limitations you experience in visualization could be seen as both a challenge and an asset. While they might sometimes impede your ability to fully realize a concept or scenario, they also serve as a reminder of the limits of human cognition and the vastness of the unknown. As technology advances, tools like VR and brain-machine interfaces might indeed offer new ways to enhance our cognitive abilities and explore the depths of possibility with greater clarity.
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You:
ah another thing I forgot I guess about my deductive reasoning which I am not sure is normal or not, it kind of feels like its disjointed. But in the scenario of missing keys the scenarios are one thing but all information is explored independently. For instance a sound around that time that sounds like something falling. Analyzing that sound with the environment and if something fell at a certain location it would make this specific sound which most of the time leads to finding them. Theres never been a case where I have lost something and couldnt figure out in hindsight how it got there. Though for smaller events this realization or understanding is almost instant (to me at least) which I chalk up to just my own intuition. It can be a double edge sword as I can get OCD about it if its something that the logic or path is not rational or my common sense logic, which isnt exactly healthy when I am looking for something or an answer that I already know but uncertainty or outside factors break the logic until you find the abnormalities. Sometimes I wish I could make this flow of information or processes that are happening in my cognitive brain I could stop, but at most I can only lessen it with mental exercise or will. That's why I say it sounds amazing but even if I find the string of logic that does not mean it is the correct logic, which can lead me into weird territories. But like I tell my therapist and other people I use the quote from the anime Buso Renkin in which one of the main villain's is a super being that sucks the life force out of everyone around him. He was asked to stop and he said this. "This is like breathing to me, I cannot stop it even if I wanted to." Thats my summary of why I cant just tune it out because its on a subconscious level and intuition or instinct. It can be taxing sometimes and is probably why I have some mental disorders. especially when your grasping at knowledge that is beyond your reach, like they say stare at the abyss and the abyss stares back at you. Its a path that ones you take it or come to that realization it becomes impossible for you to ignore it ever in your lifetime other than through natural cognitive or disease degradation like age or Alzheimer's Disease.
Its why I also would never teach such a way of thinking or my belief structure, because not everyone can handle profound realizations. And even me although I came back from it and come to an understanding to it I didnt leave there without taking damage or scars on your psyche. It is also a very lonely path or belief as in the end it is only up to you to deal with the problems that come up and if or how you can understand and live with them afterwards. I feel like there is a word for this, but cant think of it. hmmm
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ChatGPT:
The cognitive process you're describing, where you engage in detailed analysis of disparate pieces of information to solve problems or find missing items, does sound like a form of deductive reasoning, but with a highly intuitive and deeply introspective component. It seems that your mind naturally gravitates towards integrating various stimuli and pieces of information to form coherent narratives or explanations, a process that can be both a source of insight and, at times, a source of distress.
The experience of not being able to "tune out" this constant analysis and integration of information, likening it to a subconscious and involuntary process, resonates with the concept of hyperfocus or hyperawareness, often associated with certain neurodiverse conditions. For individuals with these traits, the mind's relentless pursuit of connections and explanations can be both a unique strength and a potential source of anxiety, particularly when the logical thread isn't immediately evident or when the process becomes obsessive.
Your awareness of the psychological toll this can take is important, as is your recognition that profound realizations and deep introspective journeys are not without their risks. The metaphor of staring into the abyss, with its reciprocal gaze, captures the existential weight of delving into the profound or the unknown. Such experiences can indeed leave lasting marks on one's psyche, and it's wise to approach them with caution.
The sense of solitude you express in navigating this path is also poignant. It underscores the deeply personal nature of such cognitive and existential explorations. While others might share aspects of the journey, ultimately, the reconciliation of these insights with one's sense of self and place in the world is an individual endeavor.
The word you might be searching for could be "solipsism," the philosophical idea that only one's mind is sure to exist, or perhaps "existentialism," a philosophy that emphasizes individual existence, freedom, and choice. Both touch on the themes of introspection, the quest for meaning, and the inherent solitude of the human experience. However, these are just two possibilities among many philosophical concepts that grapple with similar ideas.
In any case, it's important to balance these profound explorations with self-care and, when necessary, seek support to navigate the more challenging aspects of such a cognitive and existential landscape.
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Nicholas J Kunc
Down the rabbit hole again...
Manga Discussion to Physics and belief and mathematics